Episode 14 and Episode 15: Curator’s Corner with Chelsea Pennington Hahn: Ethics of Curation
Podcast Transcript
E: Welcome to curators corner part three. Thank you so much for getting this started with me. Who are you?
C: My name is Chelsea Pennington Han and I am the curator of collections at the Museum of Boulder.
E: I love it. I love it. Where are we right now?
C: So we are in Boulder. We are in our main museum building, which is near downtown Boulder where I actually spend most of my time in Gunbarrel in our collections facility; that is typically closed to the public though. So, we're in our main location. Where there are exhibits.
E: What is a collection facility?
C: So that is our permanent storage facility. So we have, you know, over 40,000 objects. So only a very small percentage are on display at any one time in our exhibits. And so when they're not on display, we keep them in our facility off site, which is climate controlled, it's, you know, high security.
E: So, how common is it for a museum to have their storage facility off site from the actual museum where people see exhibits?
C: I don't I think it's fairly common, it's not, you know, unheard of okay. It kind of depends on the size of the museum. So some museums you go to will have, you know, their exhibits. And then a huge behind the scenes area for where things are stored. But also yeah, lots of museums have either some small storage on site but a larger storage off site. Especially, you know, if you're in a big city or a place like Boulder, where real estate is pretty competitive. You know, it doesn't really make sense to pay a ton of money to have like, a warehouse in downtown Boulder. It just stores objects when you can get it at a much cheaper price out in Gunbarrel or further away. We're lucky, ours is, you know, 15 minutes away, you know, there are some museums 45 minutes, an hour, like it can be quite a drive out to the off-site facility just sort of depending on where you're able to find enough space.
E: My goodness, this is interesting. Yeah, okay. And then the other big question I was gonna ask: I think you said somewhere around 40,000 pieces.
C: Yeah. Objects.
E: And you just started this museum in 2018, right?
C: So yes, I know. Okay. We have existed as an entity since 1944. So about 77 years now. Yeah, in 2018. So we were originally an older historical society, morphed into the Boulder history museum and we're in a historic house up on the hill for about 30 years. But since the 1980s, and then until 2018, and that's when we moved into this new location. So we had bought this location, I think in 2013 renovated it, made it, you know, a museum space and then opened, yeah, three three years ago, 2018. So, yeah. So it's a little bit of a weird history but no, we did not get that amount of art in three years.
E: Okay, thank you. I’m just taking my first seat as a collection committee member for the CU Art museum and I was like, wait a second, 40,000 objects in 3 years is super fast. I’m also wondering, how does one acquire art?
C: Yeah. So it really depends a lot on the size of the museum and you know what type of museum we are. So our collection is primarily about historic artifacts, which includes some you know, art pieces and paintings. But the majority of it is 3d objects, you know, some are, you know, really old from, you know, pioneer days. Some are really recent. We have ones from this year from COVID19. So it's a wide range of things and for us because we are a smaller museum and focus on local history, the vast majority of things we get are donations from the community members. So sometimes it's, “I was cleaning out my grandma's attic and found a piano or this quilt that has all this history.” And I’m like, yes, please. Like I would be so interested in this for, you know, for example, the vaccine we had quite a few things related that we've worked with the older community. We would love to, you know, tell this story of the COVID19 vaccination program. We asked “what objects do you have that we can, you know, add to our collection,” and they were really amazing and donated a couple things. If you're a larger museum, especially if you're an art museum, you might have some sort of budget to purchase artwork or if you're the Smithsonian you’re buying important historic artifacts that might be up for auction and are pretty competitive. Other museums have budgets like that. For us, really generous people donate things that have maybe been in their family for a long time or if they bought an old house and they're cleaning it out. And they say, “I found things in my basement from this old house,” and we're really lucky to be able to look through those and see what is relevant and add it to our collection.
E: That is amazing! So a little bit more on community donation. I imagine you get a real range of items - you mentioned quilts. I was just listening to a short story on quilts and how amazing that history is, and yet, how do you say no to the wrong piece? So, for example, if it's completely moth eaten but a very nice little old granny says, “you need to have this in your museum yesterday; take this off my hands.” How do you have that conversation?
C: Totally. Yeah. And sometimes that's the hardest part of the job is learning how to say no, and knowing when to say no. It's sort of a mix of. Like, you said, certainly the condition of the piece is one big factor for the most part. People get that if it's like really falling apart, they might offer, but they sort of know that it might be a no. And often we're saying no because we just don't have the resources to care for it. You know, we have plenty of things in our collection that are like, not in great condition, but we are able to care for them - to make sure, they don't further deteriorate. And so if it's in that state, I will happily say yes and we can store it and work with it and maybe hopefully get funding to have a conservator come repair it. But if it is something where we just aren't able to really take care of it properly and prevent any more damage then it's really for the betterment of the piece itself that we don't take it. It should go somewhere else where someone can hopefully take care of it. And then the other thing is just if it fits in the collection. So recently - beginning of 2020 - I went through a plan for the whole museum and created a new mission and vision statement. And so from that I am in the process of now looking at the collection itself and how do we fit into that mission and vision?
E: And so what is the mission of the collection?
C: Generally we're focusing on Boulder County history and then we're trying to get diversified. So what stories and communities are presented in the collection more. Because again, we started in the 1940s by pioneer families, so we've told the white pioneer story which is typical of history museums. So we're trying to change that. So when people, you know, offer things I try to look at if it fits in the general mission, but also does it fit our future development plan and what I would like the collection to become, so sort of forward thinking. If it is someone, you know, offering yet another pickaxe from their grandpa who was a miner and I had to very kindly say thank you so much, but like we don't need this right now. You know their story is already part of the museum and I totally appreciate that. But also we are limited on resources and spacing. We have this warehouse but also it's still limited space. And I don't know how many offers we get for pianos - all the time - and I'm just like we have enough pianos in the collection. It's you know, it's nice. People find their grandparents piano, it's been in the family for generations. They can't keep it. They don't want to throw it out or sell it. They want it to be somewhere more meaningful which I again, totally appreciate. And also pianos, as you can imagine, take up a lot of space and if it's not really relevant to a key point boulder history, we can't say yes to it. Unfortunately.
E: Oh my gosh. So one thing that came up that was very interesting is that you said the future development plan. So how does a curator balance today's collection with the collection you envision 20 years from now? How do you even keep that in your head and move along a narrative arc for the museum as a whole?
C: Yeah, that's a great question and it is sometimes the defining question of a curator's job of how to care for what you have currently while also knowing you presumably want that to grow, you know, you're continuously looking forward. And so the sort of biggest thing is that hopefully your collection has what it's called a collection development plan which we are in the process of creating. We had sort of one I guess, 10 years ago and when we first created the previous strategic plan. Now we've got a new plan and I'm working on this and other documents to support that. But whether you have the document now or if just sort of in your head some nebulous thing, you have to know what you have right now and where the strengths and weaknesses of your collection are. You're looking at what is the mission of the institution as a whole and how is the collection supporting that. Like, okay, we're doing really well in this area. If we want to tell these stories, we have artifacts for that but maybe we would like to tell these other types of stories but don't have artifacts to support that. So then as you’re evaluating potentials or purchases or even just relationships to build with the community keeping that in mind if we want more story artifacts that can tell a story from this time period or this community or this historic event we’ve got to be looking for those and be sure to say yes to those when they come up.
E: Oh, that is so interesting. Along those same lines. You mentioned earlier mission and vision and I keep hearing about community based storytelling and time period focus. How do you work with your team to define mission and vision? Not only just yall because you have stakeholders, you have your board of directors. You have all these different people you have to appease a little bit, right? How? And then you still have to come up with a collection that moves things forward and tells the kind of stories that you think need to be told, how do you blend all those, at times, contentious priorities?
C: Yeah, great question. And again, it's something nice to sort of continually be figuring out. Certainly in the new strategic plan process, we brought in a third party consultant and he was the emeritus director of the Smithsonian. We were very excited to have him and his team come out - and then again over zoom once March 2020 happened - to consult and he was able to talk to the staff, the board, and other community stakeholders to get everyone's vision for the museum and ask all those really big questions, and then he helped us to sort of combine those ideas. Like, okay, what did everyone sort of agree on, what are the strengths and weaknesses? Where do we want to see the museum go? And thankfully we have a pretty cohesive vision of the future and want to be a community resource, wanting to diversify in all areas: staff, collections, exhibits and the stories we're telling, which is some ways. It's, you know, we're a self-selecting group like this sort of being a value of the museum. So if you're not interested in that, you're probably not going to want to be on the board or work for the museum. You know, sort of like okay like this is clearly something we're working towards and certainly there's lots of back and forth on “what does that mean” and “what are the nitty-gritty details of that,” which is good.I think it's healthy to have that sort of tension or back and forth. So yeah, I think we're pretty lucky to have that sort of shared vision, certainly and then be able to negotiate and figure out what is the best way for us and for Boulder to achieve that.
E: I feel like we're flowing so well. Okay so you've mentioned community stakeholders, I want to tie that back to something you said earlier about partnerships with BCH (Boulder Community Health). How do partnerships arise? Is it a lot of the museum or yourself going out and seeing it based on something that happened as a catalyst? Or is it people coming to you?
C: It's really a mix of both. So BCH basically, we were lucky one of my coworkers, her mom, was a nurse at BCH and so when we knew we wanted to tell the story of covid-19 BCH was clearly part of that. And so we were able to reach out to that connection and she connected us with people who could tell us stories and give us artifacts. So certainly some of that is based on how we have sort of a small staff with far reaching connections so we can sort of say, okay I'm interested in this, “does anyone have a connection” and so it's us reaching out. But sort of through people that we know through staff, sometimes it's just a cold call if there's a business doing important things, or it might be reaching out and saying, “I'm from the museum” people are usually at least willing to talk to you even if it's a cold coffee. But then certainly, we have people reaching out to us regularly saying, “I'm part of this thing” or “having seen this, this feels important” and we love that. We're totally open to it because we are trying to be on top of everything and be aware of everything. But we can't, you know. We're a small staff, we're only one institution. Boulder has a lot going on. There's so much happening in Boulder so we're always happy when people reach out and say “oh you know here's this thing happening here.” So it's a mix of us reaching out instead of initiating those relationships and then people being generous enough to think of us and include us in those things that are happening.
E: That's amazing. You have such consistent branding throughout the same font, same color scheme, love it. But I digress, we're talking about partnerships. Boulder is at times, a very diverse place in terms of thought processes and perspectives. What do you do if a partner comes and they say - to get into nitty-gritty here - cannabis is legal here in Boulder. It is not legal federally. If someone felt like they had an amazing idea for an exhibit all about cannabis, how do you think about positioning the museum in terms of these larger political and societal conversations?
C: Yeah, so it definitely can be tricky. In our permanent exhibit, we do have a small sort of section on marijuana and it's really CBD. There are some tricky laws around CBD versus weed and marijuana with THC. We are very careful about what objects we're putting on display. Sometimes you can cover the label and it's just sort of like, this is, you know, XYZ thing that is used. You can talk about it in the text panel, but you can't show it. It's all very detailed. Yeah. And I wasn't there when exhibit went in. So I don't even know. I'm still learning the details around it. But certainly we often work with marijuana dispensaries as sponsorships because again, they're companies in Boulder. We reach out to companies and say, “hey if we can put your logo on this thing” but then we have other partners who are uncomfortable with that and so it is sort of this like tricky thing and everything from exhibits to you know corporate sponsorships which thankfully is not much my area so I don't have to deal with balancing that often but certainly, in terms of collections artifacts. Yeah, you know, marijuana and weed have been in Boulder from before it was legal to now when it is a thriving industry. It's part of Boulder history and really, in all areas we tell Boulder history, and we've had to tell it honestly and authentically. So even if it was illegal people were still doing it, and it was a part of history. It's weird telling that just like, we would tell any there, sort of an honest part of Boulder history, that may be uncomfortable, but it's so important to preserve. And trying to do that in a way that is of course respectful of audiences and obviously following any sort of like legal requirement. So it can definitely be tricky though because people have strong opinions about things and a lot of it is just listening and you know, figuring out things like “okay, what are the museum's vision and values and how can we adhere to that.” And part of that is listening to community members. They may not always be happy with what we're doing, you know, for a variety of reasons, some are valid some are, well, you need to have different values and that's the way it is. And yes, suddenly figuring that out can be difficult but it is part of our job as a community museum that wants to be involved in the city of Boulder and not just saying “well here's what we're doing and you know, enjoy or don't,” you know? We want to be in communication and in dialogue with the city of Boulder in the community around us.
E: That's phenomenal. Oh man, I feel overwhelmed with knowledge right now. Do you ever feel like your fingers are tingling with new thoughts? That's what I've been feeling.
C: Yeah.
E: So, on a similar note. We just talked about how, as a museum, you can put your exhibits, your partnership, corporate sponsorships in line with the larger context of what's going on in society. Shrinking that down a little bit. As an individual, you have a history, you have things you love, things you don't love; things, you feel passionate about things, you couldn't care less about. When you put your curator hat on, how do you handle both sides? So for example if there's a new exhibit that needs to happen and it goes against your values potentially or there's something that you feel like is the most important thing we could possibly be talking about right now but everyone around you says, no, no, let's not worry about this right now. How do you handle both sides of that?
C: Yeah, it's a great question, but they're always great questions. They're all things that I've had to think through over the course of working in museums. I think there's so many differences between things that I like and am not interested in an exhibit and things that go against my values. I really have not had too many experiences where something really goes against my values that I've been forced to still be involved with. But certainly, I know cases where I was in positions where I didn't have as much power and was trying to voice why I didn't think this was appropriate. I love this museum and when it felt like it was going against my guts, it was also going against the museum. I was at an institution and so trying to explain that it's not just a personal feeling I think it also violates this bigger concept. And sometimes I get listened to and sometimes I don't. Certainly, there would be a line where, at some point I would step down - I have not had a situation like that. Then in terms of just sort of things that I am or I'm not interested in that is sort of less big. Certainly I come in with different experiences and interests and passions and there's a balance. Certainly you want somebody in charge of an exhibit or even a project to be interested in it. People can tell if someone working didn't care about it; you know that'd leak through even if you think it doesn't. But also the thing I love about museums is that it gives me the opportunity; if I'm presented with a project that I don't really know anything about, it might not seem interesting to me but then I just do more research. There's always something interesting in it, you know. I feel like maybe the biggest value for anyone working in museums is curiosity. You have a piece of history or a random artifact or something around, you might be like this seems boring to me if I'm being honest, but once you dig into it there's always something fascinating. Your fingertips tingle with new knowledge as your research tells an interesting story that you didn't realize was connected to this larger arc throughout history and throughout the community. So yeah, I think when I am looking at something that doesn't immediately spark something in me, I know that if I dig into this, I bet it will. And then I can bring other people in who might say “Why do you need an exhibit about this?” and I can say, “No, no, like you don't even know. Just trust me and I'll make you realize how cool whatever this thing is.”
E: So this is amazing. You are knocking these hardballs out of the park. We can't even see them anymore. Diving into that a little bit more beyond just the experience of going through and through and through it again. How do you become talented at that? Because I feel like, and tell me if I'm wrong, but in my imagination, if someone were becoming a curator and they had to deal with some of these situations that you handle excellently, I'm sure it knocks a lot of people out of deciding to be a curator. They just stop at certain points. So, did you have mentors? Were their books or articles that helped you power through?
C: Yeah, definitely. So I have a master's degree in museum studies so that was certainly the foundation of talking through situations that come up practically. Like if there are bugs in the collection. “What do you do?” All the way to ethical dilemmas that there's no right answer to but how do you work through them. I'm very privileged to be able to have a degree that is relevant to what I'm doing now. Yeah, and I think mentors have really been the biggest thing and I was was lucky to be able to have lots of internships throughout all of undergrad which got me interested in museum and archive work all the way to now. Different internships and mentors that come through that and1 being able to learn from them and sometimes it’s them saying, “Well, here's a high stress situation that they had to deal with at some point in their job and talking to me about it. And listening to other people in charge making those decisions. Certainly now, I continue to have mentors. Some of them are my coworkers whose judgement I trust; I can go to them when there is something that I'm not sure how to respond to, I can talk to them. And then from other museums, I think that networking piece is key. I think probably true for lots of industries but networking is sort of portrayed as ‘get another job - get to know people so you can move around positions’ but I think it's usually helpful when you have questions and when you need really an outside perspective, you know someone who's not in the museum and is not gonna be affected by the outcome and be able to go to them and ask them weird situations. Such as ‘how do you preserve VHS tapes’ to an ethical dilemma for an exhibit. “Like what do I do?” It's really helpful to have those mentors for sure.
E: Oh, I love this. I can’t believe the bug thing is real.
C: That's a real problem. Yeah, that's my life.
E: Diving in a little bit more there and then we're gonna work our way backwards so that we're gonna end at the beginning. Can you give me the name of maybe one, or two of your top mentors so some people who are listening to this can also look up their work and be inspired by their grace.
C: Sure. Nina Simon, who was the director of the Santa Cruz Museum of Art and History, who, if you are in the museum world, would have probably heard of her. She has amazing books and resources and really took the Santa Cruz museum from being this tiny, like, rundown sort of, not able to survive museum, to a huge community resource. And that has really been an inspiration and sort of a model for our museum, as well. How can we do even more with limited resources? Be a resource to the community and really serve the community? So she's certainly a great person to look to for interest in museums. And then yeah, more personally in my life and career. I would say Pamela Schwartz of the history center in Orlando - it has a longer, more complicated name. Recently, she reached out after the King Soopers shooting because she was at the Orlando Center when the Pulse Nightclub shooting happened. And so now she is - sorry to get serious real fast - she reached out after that happened because that is sort of her thing now. Because unfortunately, they are very common in the US. Now she reaches out to the museum in that city and says, “hey, we've been there, you know, how can we support you?” Definitely look her up because their whole story - you know, an LGBTQ night club - so there were all sorts of political reactions and especially back at the time the mayor was very, very conservative, so it was this huge fight to even collect from the site and preserve it. It's a little bit infuriating. She has been so helpful since we were in charge of the memorial sites here and preserving and collecting. She is so generous with her time where, you know, I could text her on a Saturday morning and talk about all sorts of weird things that happen that university doesn't really teach you when you were going through all these hypothetical scenarios. No one tells you you might have a memorial collection. Pamela and her team were doing really fantastic work really thinking about their role in the community in Orlando. And with a very diverse community in Orlando, there’s this sort of weird dynamic of having Disney World there and being very tourist heavy but immediately outside of Disney World there’s very little income - drastically different. And so they’re asking “How do you balance that and serve these very different pieces of your community?” So they're doing really cool work and she's a newer mentor but has been invaluable to learning.
E: Weird weird situations that’s for sure. Oh my goodness. Did you just make me a Pamela Schwartz fan? Okay. I'm excited. I can't wait to learn more! So, here’s the last long question, then we're going to a speed round. Okay, okay. I'm sad that I even have to ask you this. How was it for you both as a person, a curator, and as someone who loves the art world to handle the King Soopers memorial?
C: Yeah. It, I mean, it's actually a lot to be really frank. It happened on a Monday and just overnight my job changed drastically. I remember, we were sitting there watching the news that evening, my husband and me, and he looked at me and he said he was thinking about how the museum is gonna handle this and I was like, “no I'm just trying to process this as a person” you know? Then going in the next day and having an email from Pamela Schwartz sitting in my inbox saying we've done this, “How can we help?” I got on a call with her and several staff members that afternoon. And yeah Cynthia Sanford is another one: she's from the Clark County museum, near Las Vegas and was there for their 2017 shooting. She and I had already been connected in a different context, so I had a phone call with her already planned for that Tuesday and I hopped on and she's like, “so I've been where you are.” And so having these two women who've done this before with similar-sized cities and number of victims - just having them talk through it with me has been so, so helpful. But yeah, it was heavy. And so the first month after that happened, I was at the site. The King Soopers and the other memorials around Boulder, daily photographing because new things are being added and then we could at least have a digital record of even if it then rained and things were ruined because this was such a wet spring in Colorado. It was nice - the most it's rained in springs since I've moved here. So it was raining and snowing and you know, I after the first couple weeks, we started taking things down, so we worked with the city and got permission for all the logistical parts. And then after the first month, I would go every couple of days again to photograph. And then, usually once a week to slowly take down things that had been up for a while and were in danger of being ruined by rain or snow. And so it continues to be a huge part of my job even though the fences are down. It was up for about two and a half months and then at the beginning of June, we were in charge of getting a team to take all of the things off the fence. A lot of it, you know, organic material, like flowers or candles that we have - lots of them. We didn't keep all but there are thousands of objects that we did keep because it's all part of the story and we're committed to preserving the community reaction to the tragedy. And so we continue to work with the city and other mentors and institutions around Boulder. All amazing partners who made it possible. Now we have boxes of these artifacts off the fence that are in our loading dock at the museum. And then more in the storage facility out in Gunbarrel. Now we’re working sorting through things that are in good condition to keep and store them long-term and then eventually we'll work with the family so they can take anything that they would like. We’re trying to also be of service to them so they don't have to in two months after losing a loved one, go and decide, “okay, what do we want from this fence?” We are sort of taking care of it for them and when they're ready they're welcome to come and figure out. So it's been a really intense role. There are also lots of beautiful moments that I got to experience that I would not have if I weren't there daily in the weeks after it, you know, talking to people who are there. So there's certainly been some really meaningful moments.
And often people who are there, who just come on their own saw me and we're talking, and I was able to sort of be a person for them if they thought they'd be fine coming on their own, and then it's a lot of emotions when you get there. I really feel pretty much that I have been part of those people's stories and I’m grateful to have something to do and feel like we can contribute. But it's an intense project and trying to figure out now how to go forward,what does that look like, what do we do with those artifacts, how can we continue to serve the city through that collection?
E: This is so multifaceted. So many dimensions, so many layers. And the first thing that comes to mind for me is that we hear about trauma-informed care. It sounds like you were conducting trauma-informed preservation.
C: Totally. Yeah, that's a great phrase for it. I hadn't put that together. But yeah, certainly. It’s not something they teach you at grad school and even in a conference they're always sessions from a very removed theoretical perspective on the situation and then you find yourself in it, like, “oh man, I wish I had paid better attention at this session that I went to” where those people who have done it before are such a huge resource. I think it could be something that we teach in the future even if it isn't like a huge tragedy situation. If you're trying to reach out to different communities who have been historically excluded, there’s a lot of trauma involved there too. And so especially like, if you are a white person coming into this, like how do you do that in a way that is respectful and compassionate and not condescending? You know, there's so many different pitfalls that can be there that can cause more harm. Even as you're trying to have the best intentions. And so yeah, I would love to see more trauma-informed preservation - I guess that’s a great term for it in that training and grad school or whatever training looks like because it's whether it's a huge event that happens near the museum you're at or if it just working with different communities trying to build relationships. There's lots there to improve on certainly.
E: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your wisdom. I want to watch three television documentaries about you. Just gonna throw that out there. Thank you so much, and have a beautiful rest of your day.
C: Yeah, thank you so much. It was great talking to you.
End of Part 1
E: Welcome back. Okay, so tell me your name.
C: I'm Chelsea Pennington Han and I run the creative collections at the Museum of Boulder.
E: Why do I feel like I've heard that before? Well, thank you so much for allowing us to do part two. You just blew me away with the amazing information you provided before but now we're gonna dive in a little bit more about you. So who introduced you to art? And what was your first big art experience?
C: Yeah, so I sort of always grew up being like the nerdy kid, who loves school and loved going to museums. No one ever encouraged me in that that was a thing you could do as a job until really freshman year of college when I went to college. I was an English major in undergraduate so I loved reading and writing and I was like “this feels like a good fit” and needed a work study job so I sort of looked around and the special collections - which is the archive for the university and the library - had openings. And I was like, well again, I like books. So, I'll just give it a shot and absolutely fell in love with it and the work. I think it was really fortunate to have my supervisor's time, it was really fantastic. And she was in communities and society, and was also just very funny and really just a great person to work for and always encouraged my detailed questions, which I loved. And so I worked there for three of the years. And I wondered if maybe I could find some more jobs related to this and just sort of had this realization one day: “actually I could just find a job as a career that you know that does this.” And from there sort of went down the rabbit hole of, “what does that mean?” It looked like working at the archives for all four years and I ended up going more towards museums as opposed to archives. I love the exhibit side of museums and the displays and the creativity that comes with that. So, I did lots of internships and decided to get master’s in a museum studies because I did keep English as my undergrad major, which I love but it's also not super relevant to museums. It is helpful, I maintain that, but when you're applying against people with a history degree...So yeah, it really started that freshman year of college.
E: You're doing it again - you’re so good. I'm like oh I want to ask more about that. Okay. Speedy, which college did you go to?
C: So I went to Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Oh yes, I grew up in Texas and yeah I was in the South for most of the first part of my life.
E: I'm from Georgia and I never hear anyone going to Alabama these days.
C: I won't move back. I don't miss summer there.
E: And do you remember what your first museum was?
C: Yeah. I don't know, specifically. The first significant memory I have is at the Dallas Art Museum. I think I was on a class field trip because that was sort of a common field trip throughout schools, you go to the DAM. You go on the tour and are told, “you can't touch the artwork,” which is like.. “this is boring”, but then the tour guide explained it's because the oils on your fingers can damage the work or the artifacts and like, that's why we wear gloves. And I’m like, okay, oh, there's a reason behind this rule. It's not just that the adults are creating things that we can't do. It would be many years before I decided that interest could lead to something more. But I remember that being a life moment. And that was sort of like, my fun fact is that I was a know-it-all pretentious child. So yeah, so that's sort of an early memory of museums that stood out to me.
E: Oh my gosh, you were a mini docent. I'm so into it. And then which art piece from your past still brings a lot of emotion to mind?
C: Oh man. Um, see, it's a great question and I'm gonna blank on every piece of art that I've ever seen.
E: And it could be a movie, it could be a book.
C: Um, yeah, I don't know. I well, I guess in this is again more of a general museum experience but again, grew up in Dallas and there's the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas, which is about the assassination of JFK because that happened in Dallas. And again, not a specific artifact there, but going to the museum, there’s a feeling. I feel like that was one of the first place I went that really made history feel real in a way to me that I had never really experienced before. So just sort of the idea of this museum focused on a very singular event in history and then pulling you know documents and artifacts related to it and being amazed that “oh this was a real thing that happened and real people were affected,” you know? My parents were alive for it - that had not occurred to me before. So that really stands out to me.
E: Now, I'm a fan of Dallas and will visit, okay. And then, did you ever consider switching gears away from the world of museums? And if so, why did you stay?
C: Yeah. I mean I think I have never truly seriously considered it once I chose this path. But certainly there are times that I've attempted to think about other fields that are filled with creativity and passion and these jobs also tend to be easily exploitable. It’s like, if you love this work, then you're okay with working crazy long days or not being paid very well or, you know, on and on. And again, this is not at all unique to museums; lots of fields are like this. Anne Helen Peterson is a writer who talks about this and the fallacy of the cool job - the myth of the cool job of when I say I'm a curator people say “oh, that's exciting.” So when you get into a career like that, it feels like well if it's a cool job that should be enough. You're underpaid and you're overworked, and there's not enough staff at your institution but that’s supposed to be okay because you can say you're a curator. I stay because I think I am doing important work. Museums serve a really important role in society and we are in this time of evolution of the role of museums as just warehouse of things that bestow knowledge upon you because like the internet exists, so we don’t need that anymore. So what is the place of museums now? And I'm really fascinated by that question. And so that's why I stay. But, but certainly, there are difficult parts to it. Again, not unique to the museum field, but certainly exists when people are doing what they love.
E: So what is the role of a museum? When you first said that, the first thing that came to mind is the idea that TikTok and newer, fun apps are, in a way, a form of a museum that focuses on short form content that is video based. So with museums not necessarily always using video what, how, where…. I'm just overwhelmed by my own question. Please answer my question while I explode over here.
C: Yeah, I mean, that is certainly like the ongoing question: why do museums still exist, especially given their very harmful, problematic history? Should they even be a thing anymore if you know they've done all these things in the past? I think it is an important question to ask, and I think maybe there are institutions that should not exist anymore, that should change drastically. The answer is always changing in a way, but I think for me, the role of museums right now or the idealistic role at least is that of a community resource. So one of our strategic goals for the museum is to transform it into a vital community resource. And I think that is sort of the, the core of it right there. For so long museums were up on a hill, like, you come to us to learn, you know, and we don't need to be that anymore because you can Google anything. I'm certain museums are a trusted source of information, but like there are lots of trusted sources of information. I think museums continue to be a way that we express our values as a society. And whose stories gets told, whose stories are collected to begin with, and so exploring that through our collections and acknowledging harm caused in the past. Those, you know, gaps in our collection, and in representation. And if you go into a museum and you don't see yourself represented, just like if you don't see yourself on TV or in books or any other media that has an impact. I think there are community tours and lots of different creative ways to use our building. But then also really intentionally saying, “if we are updating the values of this community, this society, making sure that those values represent everyone and are inclusive and equitable and not to like just throw buzzwords around; wanting to make sure that when people come in - of all different backgrounds and modulations - and people who have historically been excluded that they are hopefully no longer excluded and can see themselves and their stories in the museum and exhibits. We tell and the programs that we host and the stories we highlight, there's all different ways that museums share those stories while trying to be really conscious of that. In some ways reexamining our history and the single story from Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.
E: The danger of a single story is huge. Yeah that was hugely influential to me back in college - listening to that talk.
C: And I think it really applies to museums when we have this singular narrative, it can be really dangerous. And so as a museum we’re examining that narrative and saying, okay well like we've had it this way for years but you know what about all these other viewpoints or maybe there's actually another story that we need to reexamine and expose the truth of, so yes - it was a wide arranging answer. I think that is what museums are right now. We're trying to figure out the answer to that question. But I think in part the role is growing and changing, you know, with what the community needs and is unique to each museum depending on where they are. But yeah, so it's definitely an important question to ask.
E: My goodness. Okay. So earlier I mentioned I wanted to see three documentaries about you. Now I want to write a book alongside you. So we're gonna need to talk 800 more hours. You're doing amazing. My gosh. Just choosing questions for you is hard because I want to know it all. So, are there any drawbacks to any experiences you've had when you're co-curating or bringing in someone else to guest curate? What is that experience like for you and how do you deal with that person coming in at an equal level with you when they may have very different ideas. How do you manage that and have humility while also maintaining the lovely human ego?
C: Yeah. Yeah. It can definitely be complicated and I think yeah it's just like it's a balance of any collaborative work doing the internal work first and recognizing that I am an expert in a very specific thread and specific type of material, education, and knowledge. And so this other person I'm bringing in because they are an expert - we’re collaborating with them for a reason and so trying to just keep that humility and awareness of myself. So being very aware of my experiences and biases and when I have a gut reaction to something being able to check like “okay, is that not a good decision for the artifacts because of practical reasons or this makes me uncomfortable as a white person, as a cis-gender, or whatever.” I'm bringing in a marginalized person, let them be the expert in their experience or in the topic that they studied. We brought them in for a reason. Just having to find that balance of acknowledging I still have knowledge about museum things; I don't have to completely hand over control because I am the one who knows what's best for artifacts or the exhibits, but also recognizing there are lots of places where I am not the expert and that's why we brought in partners. I am looking forward to having that collaboration and that communication whether it's because they like have their PhD in a very niche topic and I'm like, great, like let's work on that topic or because they have an experience that is different from mine. So that excitement always helps when I am looking forward to bringing in that partner on whatever project we're working on together.
E: Oh okay, I'm gonna hold back. Okay. Last question. Last, big question, how did you choose the museum of Boulder?
C: Yeah, so it was a little bit of just serendipity. So I went to grad school in upstate New York and my husband was at grad school at CU. And so I knew I was gonna be moving to Boulder and was visiting him while we were engaged long distance. At one point we were just walking past this building. We were going to his friend's house or something and they had a banner up saying this was their future home - because we weren't here yet, it was before 2018 - and I was like “oh that's a museum, maybe I’ll just like look into it and see.” I knew I needed an internship that summer because it was a two year master's and you do an internship in the summer in between. So emailed them and end up applying to an internship in the education department, actually and got in and was very excited and moved here because I got married and my husband was here. So we moved out here and I interned at the museum. And yeah, and that was 2017. So we were still in the old building, but we knew we were moving here soon. And so it was very much an exciting time to sort of be involved. Just like there was a lot of growth going on and a lot of reevaluation of taking on the new brand, this new name. It's like, “what are our values and how are we going to bring those into this new bigger space” that is really in the heart of Boulder. I was really excited to be involved in that. And yeah, so I interned for the summer and then sort of was not here while I finished my master's and I graduated in 2018. Then they moved into this new building and my previous supervisor texted me like, “do you want a job?” while I was on the plane home from the graduation ceremony in New York. So it was sort of ust timing. And certainly a lot of luck. I try to balance - I feel like as women we are expected to be like “oh, I just got lucky” and I'm like, “oh, I did work hard.” Certainly the timing worked out really well. But yeah my values align with the institution. And so there it is. I've looked at other jobs occasionally as they pop up and they either don't the have interesting topics or I don't really agree with the way they're doing things. So I sort of ended up here by chance or fate or whatever you want to call it, but yeah, I'm happy to have ended up here.
E: Absolute last question.This one doesn’t even really count because it’s more like a conversation. So how do people find out more about you and follow you on social media? Can we look up your senior thesis? I want to look up your senior thesis.
C: If you Google my name I come with lots of articles about Boulder strong with the shooting. That's sort of like all the interviews I've done now for that. Yeah. I think I just following the museum on social media. Also, I love doing informational interviews. Usually people reach out if they've just graduated. I love talking to people, you know, about what it takes, you know, how do you become a curator or work at any sort of museum work? And we’re opening up to volunteers if people are interested in really getting hands on work. So yeah, you can find me through the museum. I'm always happy to answer questions.
E: Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time. Okay, goodbye.
End of Part 2
